10 years without christianity – Part 12
Hesediah: Hi y’all. It’s me, Hesediah, once again with David who has been taking us through his thoughts and experiences with christianity after having left it just over 10 years ago. So David, there is a subject we haven’t really touched upon.
David: Oh? What’s that? We’re not moving forward to my experiences after leaving Jesus?
Hesediah: Not just yet. You haven’t touched the Jesus being God issue.
David: I don’t think I want to.
Hesediah: Huh? For all the time we’ve talked, you’ve not been afraid to tackle any subject I threw at you. Why this? Why now?
David: Look, it’s something that’s kind of a sore spot for me right now.
Hesediah: Explain. Explain.
David: If I start, I’m gonna have to get a tiny bit into my private life. I’m quite secretive. And I may get more blunt and more direct with people that I know more than I ever have before.
Hesediah: It’s not as if they read this stuff. And I’m sure you’ve insulted someone throughout our conversation already. Come on! What are you afraid to confront?
David: I’m gonna make this brief then. I don’t want to dwell on this and depress myself.
I love my family, even my in-laws. Good people. Even though mostly all of them embrace christianity, ones that are close to my heart cling to the belief that Jesus is God. So a few of my family is christian but doesn’t hold to that belief.
Hesediah: Is that possible?
David: Of course it is. I know trinitarians and oneness doctrine people like to think that if you don’t think Jesus is God then you are not a christian but that’s just arrogance talking. I won’t go into why here. Anyway, so most of my family have swallowed the Jesus=God belief. And they are nice and balanced about it trying their best not to stick their oar in and impose their belief on me. I respect that attitude and manner. But the belief itself sickens me. Let me be clear on this.
Hesed, look me right in the eye as I say this.
There is a deluding stupidity about such a belief. A deluded stupidity. I don’t care if it’s trinity, the oneness doctrine, the God family belief, I don’t care! Once they … just one …
My brother. I love that man. Respect him to the top. I look up to the man. He is intelligent and a teaching force to be reckoned with. He’s supposed to know his bible. And yet even he swallowed the bowling ball of deception. That’s a huge pill to swallow, so no doubt it’s hard to get out. My great sister-in-law, you can see the quiet wisdom in her eyes. Yet she’s been raised on the oneness doctrine, that Jesus is God, not just part of a threesome, but is the singular God himself. I know what I said before applies: it’s the devotion to Jesus that comes first and thus blinds their eyes, but it is still painful to watch or to know.
OK, someone may ask “what’s so deluded about God becoming a man”? They would say “can’t God do anything?” Did you know that this Jesus-concept can be so deluding that I challenged a christian once with this reply: can God sin? Now a normal rational person, knowing that God is “defined” as being perfectly just, would say “no, God can’t sin.” But not this christian! No, God had to be able to do absolutely anything including sin. That’s the delusion. Think about it in terms of maths. If I asked you, “what is so deluded about infinity becoming a finite number?” What would you say?
Hesediah: If I were honest, and not playing devil’s advocate, I would say that no finite number could be infinity. It’s a contradiction.
David: Exactly. Infinite, meaning “not finite”, cannot be finite. That’s a total contradiction. So to say that infinity can become a finite number is deluded because destroys and undermines the meaning of the word. Once a number is finite, once it has a limit, it cannot be said to be infinite, without limit.
Now let’s talk about God and man. What I say next should appeal to both a rational person who has no bible knowledge or Torah knowledge, and to a person who knows scripture, the Jewish Bible. For God to be creator of the whole universe, the creator of time and space, he is by definition above it. He cannot be limited by time: he doesn’t age, he doesn’t change, he can’t die (because dying implies change). He cannot be limited by space: he can’t be confined to an area, the concept of being in two places at once doesn’t even scratch the surface when it comes to God. And God relies on absolutely no one. He needs nothing. Along with this, we have the revelation that He knows everything and that he is perfect and that he is righteous. Solomon wondered how can he build God a house when nothing can contain God. Basically, he is the perfect infinite!
And then we have man!
I wish to God that I could stop there because it should be so obvious it would slap you upside the head and shake you. But, due to the sad state of our human nature, I have to add some definition to that.
Man is almost totally opposite to God. Whereas there isn’t a mountain that God cannot move, a human being gets knocked down by the common cold. Whereas no space can contain God, we can lock human beings down with a pair of handcuffs. A man is just one place and can’t split. Man changes with time, he grows, he sits, he moves, he is dependent on so many things just to exist. If a man would just close his mouth and nose for 3 days, he’ll understand how dependent on air he is. And we’re talking about grown men. What about babies that can’t even control their own bladder?
I could go on. But in many fundamental ways, man is the total opposite of God. It’s effectively the same question as “why is it deluded to think that infinity can become finite?”
So let’s imagine what objectively happened the day before and the day after Jesus appeared. So before Jesus appeared, God was transcendent. God was everything that I described above and more. That’s how he is revealed in the Jewish Bible. And then a man appears on the scene. Before he even thinks to open his mouth to say *in a Texan accent* “hi y’all! The name’s Hey-soos, and ah’ve cum to deliver y’all from yuh sins!”, the Jewish mind, the logical mind, knowing Torah and enough of reality, would know there and then that however this person would describe himself, just by definition, this man was not God!
But then the world turned upside down. The apostolic conman Paul took his “gospel” to the unknowing gentiles. And they learned to adore the man before they understood the concepts. And that devotion grew and grew, and they shared their devotion to this man first before they shared the knowledge of the foundational scriptures. And lo and behold, he became not just a god, but the God! Devotion can delude you. Just look at the wife who will still defend the husband who is physically and verbally abusing her poor soul.
So now we have all these christians who knew John 1 before Genesis 1, or who fell in love with Jesus before they had any substantial understanding of the teachings about the God of creation described in the fundamental scriptures of the Torah and the Jewish Bible. And that emotional, almost pre- or sub-rational devotion skews their vision.
And it’s so hard to even to produce Jewish Bible verses to disprove their delusion. Why? Let me give you an analogy.
Imagine you are in a world where you want to tell someone that you love them (love according to the normal definition). But in this world, every word and phrase used to express love has been re-defined to mean hate. Try expressing verbally how much you care for someone in that world.
The same has happened with regards to the trinity, the unified group of three gods.
Hesediah: David, they say they worship one God.
David: I’m not going to get into that here. Just go to http://leavingjesus.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/but-we-worship-one-god/ for my view on that claim.
Anyway, using that analogy I gave just now, trinitarians and others who believe there is plurality of persons in the Godhead destroy language. Take for instance, ask a normal person the question, what would God have to say to show that he is a singular God with no plurality of person? They would give statements and phrases like: alone; one; by myself; I’m on my own; the user of singular pronouns. Now each of these phrases can easily have a scripture or passage from the Jewish Bible to go with it. But then here comes the trinitarian or God-is-plural group! Now “one” becomes a complex unity with multiple parts. The singular pronouns can refer to a group of “persons”. Hell, they can’t even give a simple understanding of the word persons because each attempt creates the image of a group of three gods in a person’s mind. Even “I’m on my own” or “alone” has had its meaning undermined. Now after they’ve destroyed the normal usage of words, try quoting a scripture! You should get a hint of the difficulty.
Some of my own family members are caught up, in one way or another, in this idolatrous crap and it saddens me at how powerless I am to help them. Sometimes it’s a strain to be understanding and just understand that’s where they are at the moment. People with no heart or sense of God won’t understand why it’s saddening, but just imagine a relative who is harmfully and hopelessly addicted to drugs, or who has got involved with a violent murdering criminal gang, even if that gang has badges …
Hesediah: Hold on. What’s that last bit supposed to mean?
David: Forget it! Just imagine that a relative is involved in something wrong like what I’ve mentioned. What people don’t understand is that who or what God is – how he revealed himself – and, more importantly for gentiles, what he is not is still a moral question and there is a standard. And if you fail that standard, that is as morally wrong as murder or theft. That’s why it this is such an emotive subject for me. One that I would like to deal with briefly and move away from. I’ve written other stuff about the subject anyway so …
Hesediah: What? So no scriptures? No quotes?
David: No. It would take some time to talk about the mindset that makes God into men, turns messengers/angels into God and then into Jesus and then back again, a mindset where one can say they worship one God and whilst holding up three fingers referring to the same thing. There are webpages that list all the truly monotheistic scriptures. I don’t want to reinvent the wheel on this occasion. I think me sharing the problems I have with my own family gives some hint into the problems with this godman monster notion.
Hesediah: OK. If you’re sure.
David: OK. Let me just refer to my previous articles, if anyone cares.
Hesediah: OK. I think next time we’re still gonna have to ask questions about how your family reacted to you leaving their faith. But until then, thank you, reader, for going on this journey with us. Have a great day.